never a JW. That is why I said that I am not sure if that was correct or not but that was the argument. But I can actually kind of see the possibility of it being true. it would be who is selling the literature, the Watchtower through an agent or would the retailer be the individual JW. That question would be answered through another lawsuit since it wouldn't have been answered in the Supreme Court case as the Swaggert Ministry's doesn't have individual ministers who were collecting money.
John Davis
JoinedPosts by John Davis
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49
Rookie exJW Question
by Phoebe ini was wondering if someone could help me with a question.. i am a rookie exjw, i only left the organization 4 months ago and everything i've discovered (un/arc/malawi/mexico etc) i've only discovered in the last few months so you can image it's been a huge shock to me especially after after 50 yrs!.
every time i think i've heard everything, something else pops up.. now i've come across a youtube video that mention tv evangelizer jimmy swaggart and the watchtower.
i remember jimmy swaggart from the time i lived in the u.s.a and i remember the scandals with him and prostitutes etc.
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103
Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism
by John Davis ini wanted to get people's opinion on something.
how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.
there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.
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John Davis
JP is the example you are referring to is the Lopez case where Losch did not attend the deposition. While yes Losch did defy the trial court's decision there is Due Process in the US and part of that is the fact that someone has the right to appeal to a higher level of court. If you don't think that it is right to appeal matters, that don't go in your favour, then I can't argue with you on your belief but it is the reality that is the way it is supposed to happen.
The 4th District Court of Appeals is also not the only court that has ruled that there is a distinction in the corporations and managing directors of those corporations used by Watchtower. There was also a Federal Court in the south that also ruled in that way. Watchtower provided the PMQ to answer questions so I am not sure what Mr Losch would have been able to offer, other than to attempt to humiliate him, which is a violation of California state law.
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49
Rookie exJW Question
by Phoebe ini was wondering if someone could help me with a question.. i am a rookie exjw, i only left the organization 4 months ago and everything i've discovered (un/arc/malawi/mexico etc) i've only discovered in the last few months so you can image it's been a huge shock to me especially after after 50 yrs!.
every time i think i've heard everything, something else pops up.. now i've come across a youtube video that mention tv evangelizer jimmy swaggart and the watchtower.
i remember jimmy swaggart from the time i lived in the u.s.a and i remember the scandals with him and prostitutes etc.
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John Davis
krismalone: I think that Watchtower has hidden a lot but this is not one of those cases. The brief is public record and can be read by anyone. Just because they don't advertise it doesn't mean that they are hiding that fact. Tons of people and organizations will make something public and don't advertise it.
Phoebe: You should read the brief yourself and see what it actually says. The basic idea that Watchtower was trying to say was that there is no difference between providing a message that is spoken and a message that is printed on a piece of paper. So if you are cannot tax the donations given in a religious building during a religious sermon than you shouldn't be able to tax a religious sermon that is printed on the page and is given to someone.
In the brief Watchtower repeatedly stated that they did not take sides with either party in the case but wanted to present how taxation would affect them and their adherants. it only brought up Mr Swaggert's Ministries once at the end to discuss the State Supreme Court's decision and barely mentioned the ministry at all.
But again you should read the brief yourself it shouldn't take more than 20 minutes to get it through. You can also read the full Supreme Court Decision and see what the Supreme Court actually ruled in the Swaggert part of the case.
As a side note, I am not sure if they would have been correct or not, but Watchtower would not have paid this tax but each individual JW would pay the tax from the donation. That would mean that each individual JW would have to register with the state board and any local agencies if a county or city also wanted to tax the literature. So each JW would have had to file a quarterly tax return and send in the money that way.
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103
Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism
by John Davis ini wanted to get people's opinion on something.
how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.
there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.
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John Davis
mrmagic:
I accepted that Mr Zalkin has a copy of those records and he went through the correct means, he got a court order to get them and the reality is that the court also said that third parties have their right to privacy even those who have been accused of paedophilia but who have never been charged or convicted.
If someone wants to hack Watchtower and like anonymous I am certain that is a possibility but I don't think it is the right way to do it. The reality is if someone is going to commit a crime to get the database they are going to commit that crime to do it, but they also have to be ready for the consequences if they are found committing that crime.
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103
Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism
by John Davis ini wanted to get people's opinion on something.
how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.
there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.
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John Davis
I also don't think that Mr Zalkin should have the private information either, I think that he is just to the public. I think that it should be turned over to the police and let each police force review it but it should not be turned over to the public or to a private lawyer.
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103
Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism
by John Davis ini wanted to get people's opinion on something.
how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.
there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.
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John Davis
JP made the claim so I asked for proof. -
103
Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism
by John Davis ini wanted to get people's opinion on something.
how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.
there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.
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John Davis
Please provide more examples. In PA some of the letters in the Fessler case was ruled as being privileged as well as other cases both inside the US and outside. I think that these documents should be turned over to the authorities but not to the public. I think that there are innocent people's names in there and if it was released the PUBLIC than that is wrong, I think that the authorities are the proper place that they should be sent off too.
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103
Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism
by John Davis ini wanted to get people's opinion on something.
how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.
there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.
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John Davis
JP you need to keep up with events. The Appeals Court ruled that Losch did not have to comply with the subpoena because he does not control Watchtower nor Watchtower controls him. And the court of Appeals in Lopez ruled that third party redaction is appropriate and so did the judge in the Lopez case when it was sent back down to the trial court level. Even in Trey Bundy interview, Mr. Zalkin confirms that he has the files he is just barred from talking about it by a court order.
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Is There Anywhere To Go for an Outed JW elder/pedophile enabler?
by mrmagic insince the australian royal commission, a lot of jw elders have been outed for either being pedophiles/molesters or for enabling it.
the jw elders who enabled it, are publicly outed to their community online and offline.
it's become a congregational matter with the entire kingdom hall and someone said that this elder would lose his eldership possibly, due to it "being known in the congregation and community" that he enabled child sexual abuse.
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John Davis
How have the elders who have not reported these matters been outed? The official filing from the ARC is using a numbering system and doesn't provide names. Even in the Charity Commission's filings last week, if I remember correctly the only name that was actually used was the perpetrator.
In the Fessler Case in PA, there were names but just of any elder who testified.
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103
Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism
by John Davis ini wanted to get people's opinion on something.
how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.
there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.
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John Davis
I think that for what most people are doing there are a number of other ways. Lets take what people call the paedophile database.
I think the way that Zalkin has gone about it by going through the courts is the proper way of doing it and Watchtower has been mostly complying with the orders, while he doesn't like the level of names and personal details being removed and there is a protective order, it is going through the correct channels. Or how the ARC was able to get the whole Australian record, and they turned it over to the appropriate law enforcement agencies that could do something about it. I think going through legal means is much better in the long run.